Perilous times indeed.

[Lurker]

I will freely admit my error if you can offer some serious leaders who stood up and condemned these actions. I'll go so far as to publicly praise them for their actions.

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1...nts/page5.aspx
Statement by H.E. Shaikh Salih bin Muhammad Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council of Saudi Arabia on Friday, September 14, 2001, following the terrorist attacks in the United States. (A small excerpt shown below)

Those who commit such crimes are the worst of people. Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong.
Aggression, injustice and gloating over the kind of crime that we have seen, are totally unacceptable, and forbidden in Islam.

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1...man/terror.htm (an excerpt shown below)
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS – Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
[quote]
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an: ‘No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another’ (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
MSANews, September 14, 2001

How is that for a start? I will keep going. You also mentioned that their lives would be in danger for speaking out against 9/11. Do you have any evidence that any of these people have been threatened or killed or is it possible that you were wrong in that assessment?

[Lurker]

Scott:

Here are a couple more high profile Muslims speaking out:

Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem al-Thani told a news conference at the end of the meeting that: "We don't generally support military action but then again we don't support terrorism either and we also have to identify terrorism and see its causes, which is why we asked for it to be discussed...at the United Nations in future."

Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal told reporters that Muslim states wanted to help "eradicate terrorism ...(which) harms the Islamic world and Islamic causes and had never served the Palestinian cause."

[DoctorDoom]

The Web Playskool student continues to ramble.

DrDoom:

Sorry, I think I am done responding to you.

Is that a promise, kid? If so, I'll consider it with the same credence that I give to Obasshole's 99 zillion "promises". You know you will continue to react (not respond) to my brilliant, incisive, unarguable posts because you can't resist trying to play "grownups", walking around the house in daddy's shoes.

I fully expect that all future posts from you will be just as devoid of depth, understanding and intellectual value as your scribblings to date. As I've said before, you're not a novelty. There is nothing about your posts that is different from hundreds of other ramblings by liberals on a dozen boards and newsgroups. Liberals are clones.

Your seem to have no understanding of anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is useless except to liberals, who rely on it because they have zero acquaintance with facts and empirical evidence. I am not even slightly impressed by liberals who intone that THEY know of a person who is this, that or the other who does not think or do such and such and therefore it disproves the long-established norm.

The fact that you know a few Muslims who have not (yet) killed infidels in the name of Allah and his insane pedophile "prophet" does NOT negate the cold, hard, indisputable fact that the vast majority of terrorism around the world is carried out by Muslims.

There are no Christian terrorists or Jewish terrorists or Buddhist terrorists or Hindu terrorists or Confucian terrorists. Why is that, little boy? Could it be because Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism and Hinduism and Confucianism don't have violence, torture and murder as central tenets of their doctrines?

No understanding of context.

Context in a liberal's "arguments" is whatever they want it to be. YOU, little boy, are utterly unable to grasp context that is external to your ill-educated personal biases. I don't hold you culpable for that. You're a liberal, and it is expected. Liberalism is antithetical to reason, logic and wisdom. In my decades of dealing with liberals, NOT ONCE have I encountered one who was capable of rational, objective discourse. I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that liberalism is a genetic malfunction.

No understanding of logical fallacies.

If I had a buck for each time that some fatuous liberal cited "logical fallacies" to avoid responding to an opponent's solid arguments, I could pay off the national debt and have a hundred trillion bucks left over. It's a kneejkerk liberal reaction to actual discussion and debate.

A love of strawman arguments.

My arguments are ALWAYS on target. You know that. That's why you play the offended liberal and avoid the posts. You have NOT ONCE responded in context in our encounters in the two threads where you have drooled your sputum. I am not the only person who has noticed that.

It just is not worth it to respond to you.

You haven't yet responded. You have merely reacted.

Plus, you seem more interested in insults than an actual discussion.

Without exception, your "actual discussion" consists of totally ignoring valid points and cold facts with which you disagree. Instead you engage in pathetically inept attempts at diversion, hoping that your rhetoric will distract us from your lack of debating skills. You bring to mind the image of an amateur tennis player on the court at Wimbledon in a Chicken Man suit to distract the spectators.

Your inability to engage in "actual discussion" is a recognized fact, but we have long since come to expect that from liberals.

Sorry to be abrupt with you.

Don't apologize. Far better liberals than you have tried and failed to best the old Doc. My batting average is still 1.000.

It does not have to be personal but trying to wade through all your personal remarks is tedious...

You have without exception ignored, mocked or rejected impersonal facts and unarguable truths. One might conclude that you, like all liberals, are immunized against them.

... and, like I said earlier, betrays your lack of logical argument.

Kid, you wouldn't recognize a logical argument if it put on size 99,000 steel-toed brogans and booted your tender young ass into the next dimension.

---

Plus, like the Bible, there are myriad interpretations of a given text.

There are some verses that are amenable to "interpretation", if one adamantly refuses to saccept the clear meaning. Axiom of exegesis: if a verse is very clear as written, do not seek hidden meanings in it.

Plus there is context to interpret.

The "context" in the Bible is set by the cultural and religious norms of biblical times. Many biblical verses are based on the standards of those times. However, when for example the Lord stated something that was intended to resonate throughout the rest of human existence, he made it very clear that it was not confined to the first century.

Islam, OTOH, is based on the Koran. NOWHERE in it is there even a word that suggests that it applied only to the times when the psychotic "prophet" hallucinated it. Every word, every jot, every tittle was for Muslims of all ages. Muslims know rhis, and they reject it at their peril.

Islam is a sixth-century demonic cult, and Muslims are being held in the sixth century. Learn it. Understand it.

Imagine I take this quote from the Bible:

Quote:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Hmm, if I read that as written it sure does not sound that good. A clear case could be made for an endorsement of slavery.

What your reaction shows is your ignorance of biblical times. In those days, the "slaves" of the Hebrews were considered as servants, essential members of a household, not the pathetic wretches of "Roots". However, liberals don't let facts interfere with their rhetoric.

That is the sort of literal interpretation we can expect from the Bible.

And that is the sort of arrant nonsense that we have long since learned to anticipate from liberals whose only source of biblical information is the Ignorant Infidels web sewer.

Or what kind of God would ask you to sacrifice your son to him on a rock and then say no, just testing you. Ha, ha.

Gosh golly gee willikers, I'm rolling on the floor in side-splitting laughter from your dazzling display of wit. Don't worry, little boy. Your god will make no such demands of you. He has you already, and you'll be spending eternity with him. It is of course your choice.

Look, I don't want to get into a debate on Christianity...

A wise decision, given your evident ignorance of it.

... my point is to show that if we judge Chrsitianity by the same literal readings we get from DrDoom and his ilk we can see Christianity wilt under the bright light as well.

I gave you the opportunity to offer for us examples of biblical verses that are comparable to the cited verses from the Koran. We're still waiting for you shine the "bright light" that will cause Christianity to "wilt". We of course will not bate our breath waiting for you to do so.

---

Not mine, but good nonetheless.

A Contrast Between Mohammed and Christ

Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the infidels; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION; Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Colossians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, Convert or die!; Christ said, Believe and live! (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached Death to the infidels!; Christ prayed Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers' share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god Allah; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).

Some modern day disciples of Mohammed responded to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were Christians in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the gospel be preached to the Jew first (Rom. 1:16).

The Koran says, Fight in the cause of Allah (Qu'ran 2.244); the Bible says, we wrestle not against flesh and blood and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Cor. 10:4).

The Koran says, Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, Preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers (Qu'ran 8.12); God inspires His terror (fear, reverential awe) into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual, which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam; the Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matt. 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah; Christ claimed that He Himself was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY!

Note: For excellent documentation on the bloody history of Islam, see The Bloody Legacy of Islam by Chuck Sligh.

But these [things] are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have LIFE through His Name (John 20:31).

[Lurker]

Scott:

Here are a couple more leading Muslims for your consideration.

http://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html

Spain's leading Muslim clerics have issued a religious order declaring Usama bin Ladin an apostate and to have forsaken Islam by backing attacks such as the Madrid train bombings.

Here is another site that lists the hundreds of Muslim leaders around the world condemning 9/11 and terrorism. Look through their links to see all of them.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[Wyatt Junker]

Are we seeing Muslims sawing off heads here in the states? Do we condemn someone because they share a religion with someone else on the other side of the world? When you see some of these atrocities here in the states from the millioons of Muslims who have lived here peacefully then we can talk.

No, we can't talk. Not then. It will be far too late then.

That's how this game works. It isn't 'argued' on your terms. Muslims don't give a warm, watery shit about your arguments or about how nice and wonderful you think they are, but they will certainly use sheep like you to advance their agenda.

Islam waits for democracy to catch up with it. What's democracy? Mob rule. 50% plus one. Look at Paris, France. They don't even wait for that. Maybe 30%, then they begin to apply pressure and torch Peugots on the street for two years straight in the face of the forced media blackout. You want to talk then?

Since Islam is a chickenshit, retrograde, backwater, 3rd world shithole fabrication of plagiarized Old Testament texts lifted and rewritten with various 'thou shalls' and wife beatings and homoerotic imagery ecetera ecetera... (Mo had a great need to sound like one of our guys, tonally speaking), so we have a jumble of phrases cobbled up together into piles of random Judaic shat with piss poor chronologies and meaning. IOW, Mo was a cheat, a liar and a fraud. If it wasn't for his love of underage girls to drive his conquest forward and his love of shedding blood there would be no Islam today.

And right on cue, Islam today, like a bad guest, waits for the appropriate time of arriving at a population's critical mass before it acts out its true intent upon its civilized host. It is like a virus. Until then you will get rope-a-dope in the form of apologists, CAIR and noobie dillweeds like yourself, aping cheerleaders of the ignorant, multicultural populists, leftist sensitives and snobs, those thinking themselves 'intellectual' but having arguments cloudier than spoogemopper's bucket in a porn theater. The apex of thought of today's left is akin to the squeaky helium voice of Paris Hilton a moment before she cokes herself out to sleep in daddy's limo.

Been to all three places.... Not a big problem.

No, you haven't liar.

Malmo is having a big big problem right now. The throatslitting is just getting underway. It took awhile before they felt comfortable enough to get their critical mass, but they finally did 5 years ago. Sharia law zones are being enforced in Paris, France as well as other pockets within Europe.

It does? There are plenty of Muslim majority countries that don't appear to be the nightmare country you imagine.

Don't read the news much, eh?

I guess the 'Arab spring' kinda went right by unnoticed huh? One thing about that. It sure was a great revealer of those 'moderate' muslim countries. Egypt was moderate. Oh wait, I guess it never was. The ease with which the MB took over put the lie to that one I suppose. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Even Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco and Tunisia - all 'moderate' muslim countries - erupted in self effacing, pro-extremism. Lebanon also fell into mob rule. Turkey? Were they civilized enough to enter into the EU? They sure were groomed right. Oh they tried really hard to make people believe they didn't hate the Jews. Hey, even if Mein Keimpf was their number one best seller(pssst... and still is!). Hitler is their Harry Potter, 'light literature' we'll just call it.

Yeah, but you've been everywhere. I almost forgot. You libs sure do get around. Just make sure you bring two bags next time for your mom and your girlfriend. You wouldn't want them to forget to wear them.

Oh, but you travel. You already know that. That's the muslim version of homeland security. If you're a chick, you're on the list.

[Atty Tude]

Scott:

Here are a couple more leading Muslims for your consideration.

http://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html



Here is another site that lists the hundreds of Muslim leaders around the world condemning 9/11 and terrorism. Look through their links to see all of them.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

So she was cuckolded and humiliated on an international scale? Bah. This too will pass.


All these "protestations" from the members of the religion of peace have the same amount of credibility as Hillary Clinton's brave "stand by your man" stunt during the Lewinsky Affair. We all know the truth is she didn't want to relinquish the power that came with being the American First Lady. Do you believe she would be where she is if she had acted like the feminist she wants us to believe she is, and had walked out on her sexually incontinent husband?

It's the same thing with the so-called "moderate Muslims." When reminded of 9/11, they shout "I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you, at all this violence going on!" Sure they are. Especially in front of the ever-accommodating press.

Clinton wagged a disapproving finger in our face and swore up and down that he never had sex with "that woman." And when he was found out, he took to walking about with a Bible in his hand. Never left home without it, don't you know.

That's why I take all the protestations of shock from the "moderate Muslims" with a healthy dose of salt. anyone can make sanctimonious statements in front of the press. Never meant, and never will mean, that it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The only ones who are duped are the usual suspects: liberals, who are forever willing and ready to excuse and justify American enemies for their hatred and wanton violence.

Funny, innit? Liberals will go on witch-hunts, like the one in progress against George Zimmerman, without so much as a 5-minute consideration of the new evidence daily popping up. Zimmerman is white, you see. Or half-white, anyway. So he MUST be guilty.

Muzzies, OTOH, proudly BOAST of feats like 9/11, of their vicious hatred for anything American, to anyone who wants to listen. But liberals make utter bloody fools of themselves by going out of their way, bending over backwards to excuse, justify, and "understand" violent Muzzies. Where radical Islam is concerned, liberals will tell you "they are innocent until proven guilty." And of course, we all know that no liberal worth his/her salt would ever, ever find a radical Muslim guilty of anything.

If only liberals showed a tenth of that zealous impartiality when dealing with their own fellow-countrymen. Even if those fellow-countrymen are guilty.

And the above-mentioned is just ONE of the reasons why I feel such revulsion, such contempt and disgust for liberals in general, American liberals in particular.

[Lurker]

Malmo is having a big big problem right now. The throatslitting is just getting underway.

It is? When was the last Muslim related killing in Malmo? If it is a big problem right now then you should be able to list quite a few, eh?

It took awhile before they felt comfortable enough to get their critical mass, but they finally did 5 years ago. Sharia law zones are being enforced in Paris, France as well as other pockets within Europe.

Feel free to quote French law outlining this. I am less interested in non-govt sites claiming this but more interested in actual law.

[Lurker]

That's why I take all the protestations of shock from the "moderate Muslims" with a healthy dose of salt. anyone can make sanctimonious statements in front of the press. Never meant, and never will mean, that it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

But wait, I thought Scott said that if a Muslim speaks out against terrorism then he would be targeted for death by the Islamists.

Funny, innit? Liberals will go on witch-hunts, like the one in progress against George Zimmerman, without so much as a 5-minute consideration of the new evidence daily popping up. Zimmerman is white, you see. Or half-white, anyway. So he MUST be guilty.

Your post is all over the place. Clinton, Muslims, Zimmerman. I see people on both sides jumping to conclusions on the Zimmerman case. Best to let justice run its course.

Muzzies, OTOH, proudly BOAST of feats like 9/11, of their vicious hatred for anything American, to anyone who wants to listen. But liberals make utter bloody fools of themselves by going out of their way, bending over backwards to excuse, justify, and "understand" violent Muzzies. Where radical Islam is concerned, liberals will tell you "they are innocent until proven guilty." And of course, we all know that no liberal worth his/her salt would ever, ever find a radical Muslim guilty of anything.

What are you smoking? Is Obama a liberal? Did he approve the killing of Obama? I am a liberal, and I find Obama and a whole host of other Muslims guilty of terrorism and they should either be killed or imprisoned for life. But I am able to separate Muslims that practice terrorism from those that do not.

And the above-mentioned is just ONE of the reasons why I feel such revulsion, such contempt and disgust for liberals in general, American liberals in particular.

Do you honestly think that liberals don't combat terrorism? That we are happy watching our countrymen die? Look, we may have different ways of looking at things but I think our goals are pretty similar: A safe and successful USA.

[Wyatt Junker]

It is? When was the last Muslim related killing in Malmo? If it is a big problem right now then you should be able to list quite a few, eh?

Heh heh. Like I said, its just getting started.

In a grim and alarming story datelined Malmo, Sweden, tomorrow’s edition of The Telegraph reports the flight of Jewish families because of Muslim violence against them. Quoting an 86-year-old widow, a survivor of Auschwitz who came to Malmo 65 years ago, as The Telegraph reports, “half dead from starvation and typhus,”


” ‘I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway,’ Mrs [Judith] Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph. ‘This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now.’

This dreadful situation has been building for years: “In 2009, a chapel serving the city’s 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and ‘Hitler’ was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-crimes.html


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/07/10...slim-violence/

Now, check out what happens when you type three non-biased words into a Google search: Malmo, Sweden muslims

Feel free to quote French law outlining this. I am less interested in non-govt sites claiming this but more interested in actual law.

French law? What's 'French law' have to do with Sharia law?

You sound confused.

Again, the homework, kid, is at your damn fingertips... and ITS PERVASIVE.

Here, I'll help a bit since you seem challenged.

There's a thing called 'Google'.

Now, type 'sharia law, France' into it.

Only 3,470,000 results.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Malm...w=1440&bih=740

[Atty Tude]

But wait, I thought Scott said that if a Muslim speaks out against terrorism then he would be targeted for death by the Islamists.

So? If the vast majority of 'moderate Muslims' stood up to the - according to liberals - 'few and far between, disgruntled Muslims who go about bombing people into eternity,' what would terrorist do? Kill all the 'moderates' who condemn them?

Man, they'd have their work cut of for them.

Your post is all over the place. Clinton, Muslims, Zimmerman. I see people on both sides jumping to conclusions on the Zimmerman case.

Well, as a liberal you should know about jumping to conclusions. And it's not that I'm all over the place. It's just that liberals and Muslims act in such a similar fashion when they want to justify their crimes that I cannot help making the association.

Best to let justice run its course

Uh-huh. And if we're lucky we'll have another installment of the OJ Simpson case, held in a 9th Circuit Court-like circus, complete with a Johnnie Cochran-like race pimp acting as defense counsel. I can't wait.

What are you smoking? Is Obama a liberal?

If you're going to start braying that Obama is not a liberal, then I'll have to ask you, what are you snorting?

I am a liberal,

I noticed.

and I find Obama and a whole host of other Muslims guilty of terrorism and they should either be killed or imprisoned for life. But I am able to separate Muslims that practice terrorism from those that do not.

Of course, you do. I'm sure you carefully follow the instructions The NYT, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, Keith Olbermann, and Bill Maher give people like you on the matter, on a daily basis.

Do you honestly think that liberals don't combat terrorism?

That would depend on who the terrorist is. I'm sure liberals still sleep with the light on whenever they think of Timothy McVeigh. But they will describe Ahmed bursting into their house, shooting a AK-47, and screeching Allah Akhbar! as "Bush's fault."

That we are happy watching our countrymen die?

Again, that would depend on who's dying. Liberals were all over the place a couple of weeks ago, agonizing and frustrated about Dick Cheney getting a heart replacement, instead of just snuffing it, like they've been hoping for so long he'll do.

Look, we may have different ways of looking at things

I sincerely hope so.

... but I think our goals are pretty similar: A safe and successful USA.

Our goal may (for the sake of argument) be similar. What differs substantially is our definition of a "successful and safe USA."