Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

[Apollo5600]

Xan, keep in mind you're dealing with a sophist who has already admitted the only reason he believes what he believes... is because he accepted the opinion of a different authority without having any understanding of the decisions he's made. That's all.

[Tim]

Like god, love is also going to depend on a person's definition. It could be described as a chemical state, or a bond between two or more people. Alternatively, as cliche as it may sound, you can see love demonstrated in situations when a parent gives up their own life to save the life of their child. Maybe to some people, the proof of love would be the acts a person is willing to commit for someone else. For me, the chemical state answer would be sufficient as proof. Scientists can hook people up and see what goes on inside of their heads. Also, I'd like to point out that I don't feel this belittlees the notion of love at all. I don't think it's any less real, even though I may not think of it as some mystical force or energy.

I disagree with you on what you said about faith. I would define faith as believing in something without good evidence to do so. I don't find any situation where this is at all useful. It makes it impossible to separate real claims from false ones. For example, why do you prefer one religion over another? People of other religions believe just as strongly as you may (or more strongly) that their religion is correct. Yet you both write each other's beliefs off as false. Same goes for someone who believes aliens are among us.

The last part about what I consider proof of god is the most difficult. I don't want to sound closed minded, but I'm not sure there can be such a proof. For example, if a god were to reveal himself by taking over every computer and TV screen simultaneously around the world and told us he was god and that we must worship him, it would certainly be a feat of magic to us. It would be something a god should be able to do, but wouldn't it also be possible for some significantly more advanced alien or alien race to also perform such a trick? If they masqueraded as a god how could we tell the difference?

However, a personal experience, such as hearing a voice or getting some sort of sign might possibly convince me that a god exists. I've never been in this position, and even though I know people are capable of having hallucinations, I don't know if I could determine that what I would experience would be false. Of course, anyone else I tell will probably think I'm just crazy, similarly to people who tell me their experiences. That's why I mention that personal experiences can't be proof.

Ultimately, though I don't have all of the answers, I am content with saying "I don't know." We may not know how the universe began, but I feel that it's a cheap answer to say that it must have been because of some god, some intelligent agent. This answer provides no closure because now we must answer how this agent created the universe and how this agent came to exist as well. It's really an issue where we are answering a mystery with another mystery.

Hopefully I was able to answer everything. I also want to say that so far you are the only one who actually seems interested in having a discussion around here. For that I am appreciative

[Timberwolf]

He was referring to a cosmological issue.

So does the Theory of Evolution. Quit backpedaling. The ToE is THE theory of everything.

It (the ToE) has been taught as such in our public schools for the past 40 years (or more) as the explanation for how everything not only came to be, but how that original, single-celled progenitor of life on this planet "just happened" in a primordial soup, giving rise to ALL life on Earth.

If you don't believe that, go talk to those who are pushing it as such.

[Xantrawler]

As for having a discussion I am a strange beast on that. As for you I get the feeling you are keeping an open mind on the subject, but your type of proof may never come along. As you pointed out If God was to take over all the computers and Tvs and communicate to us all and say he was God there would still be those who would discount it and claim that it is an advanced race. As for the multitude of Religions, for me that is an easy one. Huans are flawed and we interpute the facts our own way. Yes, yes that feeds into your arguent as well, but it holds for my side of this little exchange. Even people of the same faith looks at the presentation of a god or God with differing eyes. Some people need the ersonal intervention to believe others accept it on faith. Truth be told there are a number of believers in God who use to be non belivers and through some event changed their minds. That may happen with you. It may never happen, or you may decide that there is a God and grow in a Faith. As for the response from others you must understand over the last few years people who hold their faith in God's hands have been attacked, called names, belittle and so forth. Many of them have taken to pushing back, some with preemptive strikes. We have been told we need to be tolarent of other's beliefs then our own beliefs are trampled and no one care. Our point of view is not allowed to be taught, yet the view that we are wrong is pushed on everyone. So, you need to be understanding on their reaction.
As for me, well I have worked EMS, the Mental Health Field, been a low life, hung out with out law bikers, played D&D, read anything I can get my hands on and all in all been involed with just about anything you can name that gets you called reall really bad names. I mean my God man I am a right wing conservative bad speltter redneck gun totting bible reading Jew lovin christen soft harted meat eating harly lovin man. Oh and I like little kittens too.

[Tim]

So does the Theory of Evolution. Quit backpedaling. The ToE is THE theory of everything.

It (the ToE) has been taught as such in our public schools for the past 40 years (or more) as the explanation for how everything not only came to be, but how that original, single-celled progenitor of life on this planet "just happened" in a primordial soup, giving rise to ALL life on Earth.

If you don't believe that, go talk to those who are pushing it as such.

That's not what I was taught when I was in school. Science doesn't yet have a definitive answer for how the "nonlife to life" event occurred.

[HmskoolrShrugged]

"Science" doesn't, but all the wonderfully atheistic scientists do .... they call it The Big Bang Theory.

But just as with the Theory of Evolution, it is not reproducible nor did it have any eyewitness testimony. At least Creationism has one of the two ... God made sure that testimony was given as to how everything was created, and it was even written in a Book. The most historically accurate book that has ever existed, btw.

[Franko]

Tim -

Even simple bacterias have complex 'instructions' built-in. Information. Information implies intelligence. Language.

If you can read this, I can prove God exists.

Natural selection and mutations can never accomplish what is observed in nature. There's already a 'code' built in to everything living.

And just as a watch implies a watch maker (yes, I've read The Blind Watchmaker BS book suggesting that even though it sure as hell looks like design, we should ignore it) - and a 'program' implies a programmer.


Gen. 1:1 - In the Beginning God Created the Heavens and the Earth -

When time began, God created Space and Matter. Time/space/matter = universe.

Read some Bible apologetics books. There's so much evidence the Bible is a level above any other source of ancient writing - and in the New Testament, written by eye witnesses to events.


Christianity is not a 'blind' faith, but as the Apostle Paul says, a "reasoned" faith. He debated the Greeks about all their 'gods,' showing the many evidences that Christ was not only God in the flesh, but conquered death as a means to accomplish His own will, what humans were created for - to be heirs to salvation, sons of God. Lucifer, as #1 angel, and by free will (love's weakness is that love must be voluntary) rebelled and ever since has been trying to defeat God's will. He continues to fail.

[Tim]

"Science" doesn't, but all the wonderfully atheistic scientists do .... they call it The Big Bang Theory.

But just as with the Theory of Evolution, it is not reproducible nor did it have any eyewitness testimony. At least Creationism has one of the two ... God made sure that testimony was given as to how everything was created, and it was even written in a Book. The most historically accurate book that has ever existed, btw.

A theory in science is different than how you're trying to use it. When something becomes a theory in science, it means that a hypothesis has gathered enough evidence to be considered the best way to describe how reality works. A theory is the last step in the process. Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean something is absolutely true. Science doesn't claim that anything is absolutely true. So if something is a theory, it means that it is the best explanation we have, with the most evidence to back it up.

How do you validate the historical validity of the Bible's claims about creation? It can be historically valid about a lot of things, such as the existence of certain people or certain things, but that doesn't make the supernatural claims it makes true.

[Apollo5600]

Wrong thread